I agree because after Holden's little brother died, he lost the will to go anywhere with his life. He gets kicked out of every school he goes to and the things he likes the most are girls, cigarettes and Scotch and soda and of course Jane. Therefore I understand Sally's mother said that he is wild.
Holden is indeed wild and has no direction in life, because he doesn't seem to think about how he is going to survive as an adult. He flunks his subjects and smokes like three factory chimneys, without thinking about his health (however, perhaps they didn't know in those days)he seems to believe life is a big joke and lives his life "au jour le jour", as we say in french (doesn't think about tomorrow) He is wild because he is a bit violent (pouncing on Stradlater and punching him), he also criticizes all those around him for things he also does. Al in all, I fully agree with Sally's mother.
I agree with Theo, holden doesn't know what to do in life. for example he decides to leave pencey for no reason and an hour later he does it without even thincking of the consequences. The fact sally 's mothers says he has "no direction in life" is a little strong.even though he never knows what hell do next he still does things. what sally's mother said is he really doesnt do anything at all and he just follow his instict like some kind of animal. Antonin PS. sorry i couldn't attend the question last week, I had no internet it now works but only half of the time.
special message to misses Higgins: For the last question which was given about 2 weeks ago, I, instead of answering on the blog answered on my book(orange). I was unaware that we were suposed to answer directly on the blog and so it appeared as if I hadn't answered the question. This message was just to clarify that point. thank you for your comprehension.
now to answer the question of the day: I partly agree with theo, sally hayes thinks that he is wild and has no purpose in life which is true but on the other hand, Holden is trying to find his way through life, looking for answers and best of all not giving up! even though hes a complete failure in everything he does and never finishes what he starts the important thing is tha he at least tries. therefore i partly agree with sally and theo! ;)
louis, i have to admit that he tries to do something in life. but you have to admit that he still mostly does everything by instinct. as i said he just leaves pencey cause he felt like it. without thincking of the consequences.
Holden is more the kind of person who doesn't build (neither cares for) his future.This is why I like pacome's french expression (excuse me mrs.higgins) "au jour le jour" like any wild animal would. despite all his efforts to be "normal", he can't stop himself from having moments where he just "doesn't care" (e.g : when he broke the windows in his garage, when he leaves pencey...)this is why sally's mother was kind of right, and all alexis
I agree with Alexis: he isn't completly wild. He would be a normal person just like us but circumstances changed him. If his brother hadn't died, he logically wouldn't have broken the garage windows. But on the other hand, who would half strangle Stradlater just because he/she felt like it? So thats why I think Sally's mother is partly right, but she doesn't know Holdon's background or Holdon's good side. Julian
I agree with Theo that because his brother died, he doesn't really care about what he is going to do next. And like Alexis said, that Holden lives his day and doesn't think about the next day. So Sally's mom is correct when saying that Holden is wild and has no directions in life. When Theo says that he only thinks about girls, smoking and alcohol, well that is not the fault of loosing his brother but because it's at that age that boys think about does things. Julie
I don't completely agree with Mrs Hayes' opinion on Holden's behavior. She qualifies his behavior as being 'wild' which is partly true, because he drinks and smokes quite often but on the other hand he doesn't act like a delinquent. If his parents supported him more, he could act reasonably and think more rationally. He just needs an adult to guide him. He has no example to follow. Mrs Hayes seems to think that Holden is hopeless, and that nothing can be done to change him. But I think that Holden smart, and I found that he thought about what life is all about and how he should react towards others. If someone helped Holden, just like Mr Spencer is trying to, I think that it is possible that Holden could find his place in society. Just like Theo said, Holden started getting out of control when his brother Allie died, but he still thinks about acting correctly for the sake of his mother. Indeed, as he was leaving Pencey Holden started crying, thinking about his mother's reaction when she will learn about his expulsion.
Julie, I think that Holden thinks about those things because his brother is dead. He thinks only about girls, smoking and alcohol because his brother died. Indeed, when he 1)loses his brother, he has a feeling of grief 2)sees how suddenly life can end, he needs to enjoy life "au jour le jour" (I said that first! ;) ) However, to think that you actually thought that all boys think only about that at that age, I consider you much too intelligent to think that kind of utter rubish. pacome
I understand that Sally Hayes’ mother thinks that Holden is wild and has no direction in life. Holden is a bit wild when he is horsing around (tapdancing, jumping on people…). It’s true that he smokes too much and drinks a lot of alcohol for someone who shouldn’t(as he is a minor). He is also very attracted by girls and qualifies himself as a “sex maniac”. Holden has been `kicked out` of a few schools. In Pencey, he has been flunked from almost every class, and it isn’t because he’s not bright enough, but because he doesn’t want to put the effort into it. So here, I do think that Holden could have a direction in life, but doesn’t have one yet. He told Mr Spencer that he wasn’t really concerned about his future. I also think that Holden doesn’t have a direction in life because he doesn’t seem to have real friends that support him. Overall, I agree with Sally Hayes' mother, though Holden's case is not fully desperate.
I agree to most of the answers that you all gave! I agree with Alexis, Holden doesn’t prepare for his future and the French expression Pacome used is very true. Holden doesn’t care for much anymore, since his beloved brother Allie died, as Theo pointed out. Like Amelia, I think Holden needs help and support, but not necessarily from an adult, just from someone who loves him.
Anyways, I believe, like a few people, that Holden is a bit wild. He keeps on lying, flunks in every school he goes to and doesn't care about rules or other people. He doesn't think about his future and follows the flow of his life. He doesn't have a goal. We don't know but we think that it started when his brother Allie died. I think that a friend or a girlfriend that would support him would help him a lot to find a goal. In all, I agree with Mrs.Hayes.
I like some of the ideas of different people . Laura has pointed out most the ideas of different answers. I think that Sally Hayes' mother is exaggerating when she says that Holden is "wild and (he has) no directions in life" because Holden may not have a clear path of what career he wants but he does have an instinct which he follows and that gives him a direction. She considers him wild but his actions (smoking, drinking, getting into fights...) are more from unhappiness than from lack of civilization. So I do not agree with Sally's mother. Sky
I don't entirely agree with Sally Hayes' mother when she says Holden is wild; she just says that because he smokes, drinks alcohol and likes girls. However, he is probably not the only only person on the planet that does those things and she can't entirely judge him because she doesn't know him. I think that he only fools around and smokes + drinks because he has suffered a lot of grief (his brother's death) and that he might think that life is unfair. On the other hand, I do agree that he has no direction in life because he has no one to guide him or help him make important decisions. He never had any good example to follow so he does what he wants without thinking of the consequences.
I agree with most of the comments especially Amelia and Lauras. Mrs Hayes opinion of Holden is the general opinion people have of him. He doesn't have any directions in life because like Pacome said he lives " day by day " since his brother Allie died. But I do not believe he is " wild " ,he is very mature though his actions don't always show it ( flunking,jumping on people, drinking alcohol...) He has a very pessimistic way of seeing life and people around him. I believe he understands life better than most people but he just doesn't care.Mrs Hayes is partly right he has no directions in life but she is also wrong he is not wild just unhappy like Sky said. Heloise
I believe that Holden is a little bit wild but not in the violent way. He is wild for being over-excited for he loves horsing around. Sally Hayes probably thinks that Holden is a wild boy for he does naughty things such as drinking alcohol, smoking or being a bad student for not doing the assignments he is asked to do. It is also showed that he is not violent or not used to violence when in chapter 6, he has his fight with Stradlater and loses which shows he is not used to this kind of behavior. I do believe Holden has "no direction in life" for he lives his life and seems to improvise everyday. When he knows that he is flunked out of Pencey, he doesn't really seem to care although it is quite an important problem for it is the second school he attends and the second school he fails in. However, afterwards, when he actually has to leave Pencey he begins to realize and starts to apprehend the meeting and explanation he will have to have with his parents and believes it is crucial for him to start thinking about his future. When Sally Hayes describes Holden, she probably doesn't know that Holden was kicked out of Pencey and only knows that he does not really care of what he does in school and fails in most subjects. She is not aware that Holden has started getting a little bit of sense in him only it is too late for he has already left Pencey.
I agree first of all with Mathilde who says that Holden smokes and drinks because he is having a hard time moving on after his brother's death and feels a lot of "grief" and maybe believes life is unfair.
I also agree with Victoria when shes says that Holden doesn't have "a goal". It is true because he doesn't seem to be concerned by his future.
I also agree with Laura when she says that Holden is not flunked out of most of his subjects because he is not "bright enough" but because he doesn't "want to put the effort into it".
However I disagree with Louis when he says that Holden is a complete failure because it is showed in chapter 5 that he is a good writer for he is asked to write a composition by Stradlater which means he is probably not that bad.
I partly agree with Sally Hayes: I do think that Holden has "no direction in life". Most of the time he is indecisive, and he changes his mind a lot. The fact that he keeps alluding to the ducks supports this; he has no idea on where he should go, or what he should be doing. He fails to make sense of his feelings for Jane, and simply walks around in the streets of NY, feeling depressed. I don't completely disagree with the idea of him being "wild", only that the term isn't well chosen. Holden isn't agressive to the point of being wild, he's simply agressive from time to time. He claims to "hate fist fights"; his actions prove otherwise. He doesn't hesitate to punch Stradlater, or to break all the windows in his garage (even though that can be understandable, taking into account the circonstances). We know that Holden exaggerates a lot (eg: when he describes D.B. as being a prostitute because he sells his written work), and lies a lot; therefore, his opinion is not always reliable. Eloïse Turpin
Sally's mom's right... in some ways: Yes Holden drinks, yes he smokes, yes he's a disastrous student but that doesn't make him some kind of animal or a public enemy. These symptoms are caused by a trauma he still suffers now: the death of his beloved brother. His acts of horsing around and being a "kid" aren't at all violent, Sally's mom shouldn't have any qualms leaving her daughter with Holden. When you come up to Holden's age, you have a sudden need of going crazy and you are curios to try knew things. Holden has crossed some limits, but there are many limits to which he's still far from the finish line. For some kids of his age, all limits have already been crossed, and sally's mom doesn't seem to have met many teenagers in her life
Holden definitely leaves Pencey suddenly, without giving any second thought, and then literally has "no direction in life": he doesn't have a clear idea of where to go. On the other hand, he doesn't know what to do with his life, but he isn't especially "wild": other boys, Stradlater for example, are more violent than he is. So I agree with half of Sally's mum's statement.
Sally Hayes’ mother is wrong. Holden isn't a wild child, he's only a teenager trying new things in his life. He horses around a lot, he fails at school , he smokes and drinks but he's still a smart kid. I don't think holden is wild but it's true that he has no direction in life because he doesn't care about his future! he lives in the present! for example he always makes spontaneous decisions even at three in the morning. Holden may have no direction in life but at least he lives his life.
i'd like to say that many of you stated the fact that holden has no direction in life but is intelligent. i'd like to recall that he calls himself a moron a few times
I definitely agree with Melchior when he says "Holden has crossed some limits, but there are many limits to which he's still far from the finish line".
However Antonin Holden calls himself a "moron" but that doesn't obviously mean he is not intelligent for he can call himself a "moron" because he has forgotten to do something but he can still be intelligent.
Just to remind you antonin, when holden calls himself a morron it is as Delphine said,to say that he forgot something or that he is just not paying attention, not that he's dumb.So except for that last part antonin I completely agree with you.
I agree because after Holden's little brother died, he lost the will to go anywhere with his life. He gets kicked out of every school he goes to and the things he likes the most are girls, cigarettes and Scotch and soda and of course Jane. Therefore I understand Sally's mother said that he is wild.
ReplyDeleteTheo
Holden is indeed wild and has no direction in life, because he doesn't seem to think about how he is going to survive as an adult.
ReplyDeleteHe flunks his subjects and smokes like three factory chimneys, without thinking about his health (however, perhaps they didn't know in those days)he seems to believe life is a big joke and lives his life "au jour le jour", as we say in french (doesn't think about tomorrow)
He is wild because he is a bit violent (pouncing on Stradlater and punching him), he also criticizes all those around him for things he also does.
Al in all, I fully agree with Sally's mother.
pacome
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Theo,
ReplyDeleteholden doesn't know what to do in life. for example he decides to leave pencey for no reason and an hour later he does it without even thincking of the consequences. The fact sally 's mothers says he has "no direction in life" is a little strong.even though he never knows what hell do next he still does things. what sally's mother said is he really doesnt do anything at all and he just follow his instict like some kind of animal.
Antonin
PS. sorry i couldn't attend the question last week, I had no internet it now works but only half of the time.
special message to misses Higgins: For the last question which was given about 2 weeks ago, I, instead of answering on the blog answered on my book(orange). I was unaware that we were suposed to answer directly on the blog and so it appeared as if I hadn't answered the question. This message was just to clarify that point. thank you for your comprehension.
ReplyDeletenow to answer the question of the day:
ReplyDeleteI partly agree with theo, sally hayes thinks that he is wild and has no purpose in life which is true but on the other hand, Holden is trying to find his way through life, looking for answers and best of all not giving up! even though hes a complete failure in everything he does and never finishes what he starts the important thing is tha he at least tries. therefore i partly agree with sally and theo! ;)
louis, i have to admit that he tries to do something in life. but you have to admit that he still mostly does everything by instinct. as i said he just leaves pencey cause he felt like it. without thincking of the consequences.
ReplyDeleteHolden is more the kind of person who doesn't build (neither cares for) his future.This is why I like pacome's french expression (excuse me mrs.higgins) "au jour le jour" like any wild animal would. despite all his efforts to be "normal", he can't stop himself from having moments where he just "doesn't care" (e.g : when he broke the windows in his garage, when he leaves pencey...)this is why sally's mother was kind of right, and all
ReplyDeletealexis
I agree with Alexis: he isn't completly wild. He would be a normal person just like us but circumstances changed him. If his brother hadn't died, he logically wouldn't have broken the garage windows. But on the other hand, who would half strangle Stradlater just because he/she felt like it?
ReplyDeleteSo thats why I think Sally's mother is partly right, but she doesn't know Holdon's background or Holdon's good side.
Julian
I agree with Theo that because his brother died, he doesn't really care about what he is going to do next. And like Alexis said, that Holden lives his day and doesn't think about the next day. So Sally's mom is correct when saying that Holden is wild and has no directions in life. When Theo says that he only thinks about girls, smoking and alcohol, well that is not the fault of loosing his brother but because it's at that age that boys think about does things.
ReplyDeleteJulie
I don't completely agree with Mrs Hayes' opinion on Holden's behavior. She qualifies his behavior as being 'wild' which is partly true, because he drinks and smokes quite often but on the other hand he doesn't act like a delinquent. If his parents supported him more, he could act reasonably and think more rationally. He just needs an adult to guide him. He has no example to follow. Mrs Hayes seems to think that Holden is hopeless, and that nothing can be done to change him. But I think that Holden smart, and I found that he thought about what life is all about and how he should react towards others. If someone helped Holden, just like Mr Spencer is trying to, I think that it is possible that Holden could find his place in society.
ReplyDeleteJust like Theo said, Holden started getting out of control when his brother Allie died, but he still thinks about acting correctly for the sake of his mother. Indeed, as he was leaving Pencey Holden started crying, thinking about his mother's reaction when she will learn about his expulsion.
julie, u said "it s that age that boys think about does things" but studies show that girls smoke earlier then boys.
ReplyDeleteJulie, I think that Holden thinks about those things because his brother is dead. He thinks only about girls, smoking and alcohol because his brother died.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, when he
1)loses his brother, he has a feeling of grief
2)sees how suddenly life can end, he needs to enjoy life "au jour le jour" (I said that first! ;) )
However, to think that you actually thought that all boys think only about that at that age, I consider you much too intelligent to think that kind of utter rubish.
pacome
I understand that Sally Hayes’ mother thinks that Holden is wild and has no direction in life. Holden is a bit wild when he is horsing around (tapdancing, jumping on people…). It’s true that he smokes too much and drinks a lot of alcohol for someone who shouldn’t(as he is a minor). He is also very attracted by girls and qualifies himself as a “sex maniac”.
ReplyDeleteHolden has been `kicked out` of a few schools. In Pencey, he has been flunked from almost every class, and it isn’t because he’s not bright enough, but because he doesn’t want to put the effort into it. So here, I do think that Holden could have a direction in life, but doesn’t have one yet. He told Mr Spencer that he wasn’t really concerned about his future. I also think that Holden doesn’t have a direction in life because he doesn’t seem to have real friends that support him.
Overall, I agree with Sally Hayes' mother, though Holden's case is not fully desperate.
I agree to most of the answers that you all gave!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Alexis, Holden doesn’t prepare for his future and the French expression Pacome used is very true. Holden doesn’t care for much anymore, since his beloved brother Allie died, as Theo pointed out. Like Amelia, I think Holden needs help and support, but not necessarily from an adult, just from someone who loves him.
I have question. Which page is it that Sally Hayes mother says that Holden is wild? Because I can't find it.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I believe, like a few people, that Holden is a bit wild. He keeps on lying, flunks in every school he goes to and doesn't care about rules or other people. He doesn't think about his future and follows the flow of his life. He doesn't have a goal.
ReplyDeleteWe don't know but we think that it started when his brother Allie died.
I think that a friend or a girlfriend that would support him would help him a lot to find a goal.
In all, I agree with Mrs.Hayes.
I like some of the ideas of different people . Laura has pointed out most the ideas of different answers. I think that Sally Hayes' mother is exaggerating when she says that Holden is "wild and (he has) no directions in life" because Holden may not have a clear path of what career he wants but he does have an instinct which he follows and that gives him a direction. She considers him wild but his actions (smoking, drinking, getting into fights...) are more from unhappiness than from lack of civilization. So I do not agree with Sally's mother.
ReplyDeleteSky
Victoria the page is 53.
ReplyDeleteI don't entirely agree with Sally Hayes' mother when she says Holden is wild; she just says that because he smokes, drinks alcohol and likes girls. However, he is probably not the only only person on the planet that does those things and she can't entirely judge him because she doesn't know him. I think that he only fools around and smokes + drinks because he has suffered a lot of grief (his brother's death) and that he might think that life is unfair.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I do agree that he has no direction in life because he has no one to guide him or help him make important decisions. He never had any good example to follow so he does what he wants without thinking of the consequences.
Mathilde
I agree with most of the comments especially Amelia and Lauras.
ReplyDeleteMrs Hayes opinion of Holden is the general opinion people have of him. He doesn't have any directions in life because like Pacome said he lives " day by day " since his brother Allie died. But I do not believe he is " wild " ,he is very mature though his actions don't always show it ( flunking,jumping on people, drinking alcohol...) He has a very pessimistic way of seeing life and people around him.
I believe he understands life better than most people but he just doesn't care.Mrs Hayes is partly right he has no directions in life but she is also wrong he is not wild just unhappy like Sky said.
Heloise
I believe that Holden is a little bit wild but not in the violent way. He is wild for being over-excited for he loves horsing around. Sally Hayes probably thinks that Holden is a wild boy for he does naughty things such as drinking alcohol, smoking or being a bad student for not doing the assignments he is asked to do. It is also showed that he is not violent or not used to violence when in chapter 6, he has his fight with Stradlater and loses which shows he is not used to this kind of behavior.
ReplyDeleteI do believe Holden has "no direction in life" for he lives his life and seems to improvise everyday. When he knows that he is flunked out of Pencey, he doesn't really seem to care although it is quite an important problem for it is the second school he attends and the second school he fails in. However, afterwards, when he actually has to leave Pencey he begins to realize and starts to apprehend the meeting and explanation he will have to have with his parents and believes it is crucial for him to start thinking about his future. When Sally Hayes describes Holden, she probably doesn't know that Holden was kicked out of Pencey and only knows that he does not really care of what he does in school and fails in most subjects. She is not aware that Holden has started getting a little bit of sense in him only it is too late for he has already left Pencey.
I agree first of all with Mathilde who says that Holden smokes and drinks because he is having a hard time moving on after his brother's death and feels a lot of "grief" and maybe believes life is unfair.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Victoria when shes says that Holden doesn't have "a goal". It is true because he doesn't seem to be concerned by his future.
I also agree with Laura when she says that Holden is not flunked out of most of his subjects because he is not "bright enough" but because he doesn't "want to put the effort into it".
However I disagree with Louis when he says that Holden is a complete failure because it is showed in chapter 5 that he is a good writer for he is asked to write a composition by Stradlater which means he is probably not that bad.
I partly agree with Sally Hayes: I do think that Holden has "no direction in life". Most of the time he is indecisive, and he changes his mind a lot. The fact that he keeps alluding to the ducks supports this; he has no idea on where he should go, or what he should be doing. He fails to make sense of his feelings for Jane, and simply walks around in the streets of NY, feeling depressed. I don't completely disagree with the idea of him being "wild", only that the term isn't well chosen. Holden isn't agressive to the point of being wild, he's simply agressive from time to time. He claims to "hate fist fights"; his actions prove otherwise. He doesn't hesitate to punch Stradlater, or to break all the windows in his garage (even though that can be understandable, taking into account the circonstances). We know that Holden exaggerates a lot (eg: when he describes D.B. as being a prostitute because he sells his written work), and lies a lot; therefore, his opinion is not always reliable.
ReplyDeleteEloïse Turpin
Sally's mom's right... in some ways: Yes Holden drinks, yes he smokes, yes he's a disastrous student but that doesn't make him some kind of animal or a public enemy. These symptoms are caused by a trauma he still suffers now: the death of his beloved brother. His acts of horsing around and being a "kid" aren't at all violent, Sally's mom shouldn't have any qualms leaving her daughter with Holden. When you come up to Holden's age, you have a sudden need of going crazy and you are curios to try knew things. Holden has crossed some limits, but there are many limits to which he's still far from the finish line. For some kids of his age, all limits have already been crossed, and sally's mom doesn't seem to have met many teenagers in her life
ReplyDeleteHolden definitely leaves Pencey suddenly, without giving any second thought, and then literally has "no direction in life": he doesn't have a clear idea of where to go. On the other hand, he doesn't know what to do with his life, but he isn't especially "wild": other boys, Stradlater for example, are more violent than he is. So I agree with half of Sally's mum's statement.
ReplyDeleteSally Hayes’ mother is wrong. Holden isn't a wild child, he's only a teenager trying new things in his life. He horses around a lot, he fails at school , he smokes and drinks but he's still a smart kid. I don't think holden is wild but it's true that he has no direction in life because he doesn't care about his future! he lives in the present! for example he always makes spontaneous decisions even at three in the morning. Holden may have no direction in life but at least he lives his life.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletei'd like to say that many of you stated the fact that holden has no direction in life but is intelligent. i'd like to recall that he calls himself a moron a few times
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with Melchior when he says "Holden has crossed some limits, but there are many limits to which he's still far from the finish line".
ReplyDeleteHowever Antonin Holden calls himself a "moron" but that doesn't obviously mean he is not intelligent for he can call himself a "moron" because he has forgotten to do something but he can still be intelligent.
Just to remind you antonin, when holden calls himself a morron it is as Delphine said,to say that he forgot something or that he is just not paying attention, not that he's dumb.So except for that last part antonin I completely agree with you.
ReplyDeleteantonin Holden calling himself a moron doesn't make him one
ReplyDelete